How do we feel about ramp meters?

"Spanfeller is a twat" (theaspiringengineer) 05/01/2019 at 14:33 • Filed to: None

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On Friday I’m going to be told if I got the job at the transportation secretary or not, and I want to have at least a new idea to talk about implementing.

Maybe I’m getting ahead of myself, but anyway...

but I think Ramp Meters in some controlled access roads in the city could help reduce congestion and improve safety.

I went scouting today and I realized that there are three roads where ramp meters could be implemented immediately: Periférico, segundo piso, and Viaducto.

All of these roads have controlled access, and they all have ramps long enough for the application of ramp meters without significantly upsetting traffic in the frontage roads.

Ideally, the first implementation would be in Segundo Piso, where the automated tolls in the private section already act as meters, and the ramps into the highway are way longer than normal. T he new meters would go in the free section; using the meters to limit the amount of cars entering in bulk.

Some considerations have to be made, like cost; adding ramp meters might not be very expensive relative to how they improve flow , but in order to enforce them, one would require cameras enforcing it, which would have incur a heavy political  expense, also one needs to include drivers not understanding how they work... and how that may cause more congestion in the frontage roads

CalzoneGolem > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 14:48

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All I feel is curiosity at what a ramp meter is.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 14:48

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they suck, people don’t accelerate fast enough from the light to the highway. I think they are dangerous and their failures offset any safety during traffic.

But...i have no facts or anything 

ttyymmnn > CalzoneGolem 05/01/2019 at 14:50

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramp_meter

ttyymmnn > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 05/01/2019 at 14:51

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NOBODY accelerates fast enough in the “acceleration” lane, whether there is a meter or not. 

benjrblant > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 14:51

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my biggest frustration with these, apart from drivers flat out ignoring them, is that ramp meters not in use default to all lights off. at an intersection, all lights off means power outage and drivers should adopt an all-way stop. ramp meters should flash yellow (yield) or indicate solid green (proceed) when not in use.

this concludes my mini rant. thank you for your time.

razorbeamteam > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 14:52

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We have them in Chicago. They definitely create backups on the roads they feed from, but they do work for spreading out congestion across all lanes. It makes it easier to get off the highway as well.

They’re only turned on during high traffic times where cars on the highway aren’t going fast anyway. It’s not like you need to do a drag start to merge with traffic.   

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > ttyymmnn 05/01/2019 at 14:53

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Sure, but at least they’re rolling.  If they need to go from 0-60 in the span of like 100 feet, they’re fucked.

Spanfeller is a twat > benjrblant 05/01/2019 at 14:56

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That would certainly not be an issue here... if lights are off, people just assume they have the right of way... also given how congested the city is constantly, the meters would only turn off on sundays

CaptDale - is secretly British > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 14:56

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I don’t care about them other than the signs are wrong

“one vehicle, per lane, per green”

If there are 2 signals then there should be 2 cars going per lane per each time the signals change. I know it is pedantic and dumb, but that is how it is written.

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 14:57

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Tons of these in my area. I suppose in jammed highway traffic they don’t hurt, but all too often they seem to be in operation when the highway isn’t jammed, creating a needless backup leading to the on-ramp.

Spanfeller is a twat > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 05/01/2019 at 14:57

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The speed limit in most of the roads I mention is 80kmh.... during higher congestion times, you’d be lucky to break 50 so I doubt this is an issue that would extend to my application 

Spanfeller is a twat > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 05/01/2019 at 14:58

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Don’t you work for an insurance company? Y’all probably have some juicy statistical data of where most accidents occur... if its near ramp meters you could correlate them to reduced safety

ttyymmnn > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 14:58

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How would the meter cause traffic to back up before the meter? Would the congestion be long enough to clog other roadways?

Galileo Humpkins (aka MC Clap Yo Handz) > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 14:58

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We have them at almost every on-ramp in Chicago. They are on timers or operated (on/off) remotely because they’re only active at certain times. I feel like they hep keep the merge lanes less congested/backed up, however do they reduce overall congestion? In my opinion, no. Especially not here since when they’re on, seems as though traffic on the highway is usually stop/go anyway, or at least creeping along about to be stop/go.

This is not to say that implementing them isn’t a good idea, or at least somewhat useful. I’d imagine there have been proper studies done on them that may be available somewhere. Also, most drivers here do obey the signal when they are active, whatever that is worth to you.

Edit to add: One study from Minnesota is here . Not sure if they’d care at your DOT about a study from Minnesota, but there it is.

Chariotoflove > ttyymmnn 05/01/2019 at 15:00

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This.  WTF, Texas?  Why is this so hard to figure out?

Spanfeller is a twat > ttyymmnn 05/01/2019 at 15:01

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Well, some on ramps are too short, so it would end up invading the frontage road. Said roads normally have two lanes, the one closest to the sidewalk is where the bus stops.

So, if a meter is too strict, or a driver too stupid, the queue could end up near a bus stop, causing both lanes to stop completely.

It already happens in some of these roads even without meters... congestion is pretty heavy here, and buses stop where the passengers want to be let off rather than regular stops

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 15:02

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What is expected to happen with the traffic that these ramps feed into once these meters are in place? 

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 15:04

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all accident info in BC is public knowledge as we have a government insurer.

I don’t do auto claims, but can admit to having a peak out of curiosity!

Spanfeller is a twat > Galileo Humpkins (aka MC Clap Yo Handz) 05/01/2019 at 15:05

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If the Chicago ir Illinois DOT ever made a study, they’d take it more seriously since it might represent a more similar environment than, um... Minnesota. But we already have all we need to carry out the study here; as I said the tolls into the private section already operate as quazi-meters. We could compare the flow with a few of those rubber tubes that measure how many cars pass through. 

I think people here would obey them for a month, and then they’d start getting angry at them since they wouldn’t understand why its important to not overfeed a highway. 

facw > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 15:06

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I hate them and find they work very poorly. 

Spanfeller is a twat > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 05/01/2019 at 15:07

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Depending on which ramps (some are 20m long, some are 150m long) it would back up one of the lanes in the frontage roads leading into the highway

Spanfeller is a twat > facw 05/01/2019 at 15:08

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That’s not very encouraging 

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 15:09

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Let me revise the question - once these go in, how much improvement in traffic flow backup is expected? 

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 15:10

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76 crashes at one near me. Not that many as it is since 2013 . Kinda shocked. But given it is the highway, who knows how accurate the location data is.

There is no real way to report an address or cross street on a freeway you know?

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail 05/01/2019 at 15:11

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That’s something worth considering... specially since clogging frontage roads has its own hellish consequences 

facw > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 15:12

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I feel like if they turned them on sooner (before the highway got really crowded), and let fewer cars on, they might greatly improve speed. But then all you’ve done is block a bunch of other cars, which still need to get where they are going. Where I’ve seen them they are only on when the highway is already completely jammed so they don’t accomplish much of anything other than cause more traffic jams on surface streets because cars can’t queue on the ramp.

Spanfeller is a twat > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 05/01/2019 at 15:13

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Studies claim anything from 10% to 20% increase in highway capacity. Since meters separate cars evenly as opposed to having bulks of cars form

Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 15:16

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How I view metering lights:

How people around here would view metering lights:

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 15:17

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A 20% increase in capacity is some serious stuff. How are the stats being gathered? 

Spanfeller is a twat > facw 05/01/2019 at 15:17

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Where the meters are placed is of great importance... since the average speed here is 22km/h the meters could be placed really close to the end of the on ramp without causing merging problems.

The traffic caused in the frontage road might be the biggest concern I have about even talking about the meters with someone with the power to implement them

Spanfeller is a twat > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. 05/01/2019 at 15:18

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I too saw them like a drag strip when i drove on the 405’

Lets just say some front tires were slipped 

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > CaptDale - is secretly British 05/01/2019 at 15:19

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Here in philly the lights alternate. Left green when right is red. 

RallyWrench > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 15:19

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These are all over the Bay Area. Mostly they are super annoying, but at times of high congestion they help ease the flow of traffic sometimes . They are not in operation all the time, only at certain hours of high use, but sometimes they’re on when they really shouldn’t be, it’s not adaptive to actual conditions, just run by time. I’ve seen them back well up onto surface streets during rush hour , and create merge issues due to short acceleration runs. The latter is partially a driver problem because people just don’t accelerate fast enough, but t rucks, buses, and slow cars have no chance to make prevailing speed before merging. Part of the issue is that much of the infrastructure is very old, and just adding the meters introduces new issues. You can’t just add a longer onramp when there are houses or commercial buildings right up to the freeway intersection.  It’s a good idea, poorly executed or unrealistically applied, in my experience. 

facw > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 15:20

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Normally here they at the entrance to the ramp so you really can’t stop cars without them backing up onto your surface roads.

Spanfeller is a twat > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 05/01/2019 at 15:20

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I can only guess the studies are made by comparing a highway before implementing them and immediately after implementing them using road tubes. No correction has to be made for trucks since the three roads I mention do not allow trucks. 

CaptDale - is secretly British > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 05/01/2019 at 15:21

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But still do you have an upper and lower signal per lane? Cause we do. If a car goes per green per lanes and there are two greens, then two cars a lane should go. 

Spanfeller is a twat > RallyWrench 05/01/2019 at 15:23

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The DOT here has a data sharing agreement with Waze. So I  suppose that meters could be turned on depending on real-time data . The short on ramps here are an issue... but since the average speed is so low... in the end it wouldn’t matter very much

HammerheadFistpunch > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 15:34

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We have them here in Utah.  They work well and it takes the stress out of rush hour merging.  

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 15:34

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This is very interesting. I am very interested in traffic patterns on an amateur level, although I’d love to do something like that full time.

Please keep us posted, as a personal note, I think that on a philosophical note ramp meters have some use but nobody in my area knows how they work - they go on red, they don’t merge in, they attempt to merge at speed differences too high, they stop when they’re scared. So I don’t like the ones that are around here but that has more to do with the drivers, not the tech. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 15:42

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There are several around the Baton Rouge area. I find them useless. Spacing out the ramp traffic only works if the highway traffic provides enough space for the ramp traffic to merge. It has been my experience that a ny space left between two cars is immediately filled by a third.

Spanfeller is a twat > TheRealBicycleBuck 05/01/2019 at 15:55

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It seems like there’s a variety of opinions about the meters around here. Maybe the way these devices are implemented varies across the country. 

It would take more than just goodwill to install those things and see an improvement in flow... the planning and the actual use might be the thing separating it from a failed application from a successful one. 

fhrblig > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 15:55

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I’m totally ok with them, except here in the Denver area there seems to be times where they are not used and they should be. There’s one in particular that should be on in rush hour and it doesn’t ever seem to be active.

My pet peeve with them is when drivers decide to use them as dick-measuring contests, because God forbid you ever let someone be in front of you. If there's two lanes, the car on the right should always plan to fall in line behind the one on the left.

PowderHound > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 16:04

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I get to go BWAAA-PSSSH-BWAAAA-PSSSHHH on to the 70-75mph highway, so that’s cool. Otherwise I’m fairly indifferent. They are around the Salt Lake area but I have never actually used them when it was high traffic, it was always only a few cars in line.

Spanfeller is a twat > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 05/01/2019 at 16:06

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I mean, at least in the US there’s more control over drivers. what with exams, and an established system to apply fines. Here we have neither.

In a sense, it makes implementing this easier, as people are more likely to obey the sign posted on the meter, but on the other hand, since people also don’t care about breaking the law since there aren’t any sanctions... it complicates it.

What traffic engineers typically want is for motorists to be uncomfortable; that way they pay more attention to the road. It’s why roundabouts are more efficient than regular intersections despite implementing fewer control tools: in the end city planners also want to make motorists uncomfortable because it disuades the use of cars; narrow lanes, few parking spots, expensive gasoline stations inside cities... all of that is by design.

WilliamsSW > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 16:06

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Hate me if you want but I ignore them.

Around Chicago they’re completely unenforced as far as I know.  They seem useless to me. 

Spanfeller is a twat > WilliamsSW 05/01/2019 at 16:09

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I mean, technically this government got rid of photo enforcing (stupid ), but I think that if the meter is installed with a flashlight, and a sensor to see if a car blew the red, it could simulate a camera issuing tickets which would have a very similar effect to an actual ticket in the end. 

Spanfeller is a twat > PowderHound 05/01/2019 at 16:10

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more power to you... I can always appreciate a good turbo whistle 

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 16:19

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I think it’s like putting lipstick on a pig. They are supposed to meter cars onto a busy freeway but the freeway is already busy, metering the cars onto the freeway is not going to make it any less busy.

Just drive the 101 from San Francisco to San Jose and see how useless they are.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 16:24

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“which would have incur a heavy political expense,”

Not necessarily.

If the government goes on a publicity campaign explaining why it’s being done and initially implements them without cameras, it might not be so bad.

And if people ignore them, have police have a blitz where many drivers get warned.

And if they still ignore, have a blitz where drivers get fined.

And if drivers STILL then ignore, then it’s time to bring in the cameras.

Mid Engine > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 16:26

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I’ll do my level best to be courteous and provide productive feedback; THEY FUCKING SUCK! In Seattle you sit in a ridiculously long line waiting your turn for the fucking thing to flash green, then off you go! To sit in bumper-to-bumper traffic going absolutely nowhere on what they call highways . It’s pointless and adds even more aggravation.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 16:37

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The biggest problem is the drivers. It’s the same reason we’ll never have an autobahn (or even a true “fast” lane) in the U.S. The drivers just can’t get those rules through their thick skulls. Metered lanes are no different. The drivers just break the system.

Spanfeller is a twat > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/01/2019 at 16:49

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Any tool to control cars is looked down upon by the current mayor but  I feel like in the end if we want them to work, they must be photo enforced from the beginning... It’s kind of an impossible situation. 

someassemblyrequired > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 17:59

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All over Seattle, and they do make a difference. They do need to be closely monitored and you need on-ramps that are compatible - long for acceleration  and capable of holding a significant number of cars.  I would say that it does prioritize traffic from further away from the CBD and completely falls apart at freeway interchange areas.   Let me know if you have questions - I can give you examples from Seattle where it does and doesn’t work in spectacular fashion.

Spanfeller is a twat > someassemblyrequired 05/01/2019 at 18:11

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I’d love to know where they fail spectacularly, maybe it could help me see which ramps would not benefit from meters. 

Galileo Humpkins (aka MC Clap Yo Handz) > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 18:50

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I’ve actually learned that Minneapolis/St. Paul MN has one of the highest quantities of ramp meters in the country (along with LA and San Francisco). That surprised me.

I’ve also just learned that the initial reaction to them was neutral since drivers, “would be sitting on the ramp anyway.”

As for doing your own studies, I’d imagine that would be necessary. I’d be interested to see how flow differs with tolls vs tolls and meters.

Spanfeller is a twat > Galileo Humpkins (aka MC Clap Yo Handz) 05/01/2019 at 19:47

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I hope it’s necessary ! I’d be really alarmed if the DOT of the largest city in North America had a “Fuck it lets do it” attitude to a suggestion from a 21 year old.

someassemblyrequired > Spanfeller is a twat 05/01/2019 at 22:59

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Here’s one that’s a problem: 150th Ave SE and Eastgate Way, Bellevue, WA 98006.

As you can see there’s a service road, a set of collector/ distributor lanes, a bunch of arterials and the main freeway. Lots of major employers here, and there’s meters on the collector/distributor lanes. This regularly goes wrong at the beginning and end of the workday. If you Street View around the area, you’ll see that getting to many of ther arterials and businesses near that interchange requires a lot of signaled intersections, and a lot of left turns. This means that when the meter lanes back up, things gridlock pretty quickly. Also if you look below, you’ll see it’s close to the intersection of two interstate highways (which are unmetered in Washington State). It is a steep grade down to the interstate junction, which also creates some issues with merging/traffic speeds.

Intersections to the east of 150th Ave SE are metered (the next four exits east ). There the system works substantially better, but that may also be due to the fact that there is a greenbelt/state/national forests which begins just after the fourth exit east, and extends for about 40 miles.  That area is barely populated.